On Bloggingheads with Robert Wright
Robert Wright (author of Nonzero, and The Evolution of God), interviews me about the book. We largely agree about the evolution of religion, and about the New Atheists being fundamentalists. Bob is dubious about group selection. He acknowledges it could exist, but tries to come up with individual-level explanations for human groupishness. Bob and I co-taught a class at Princeton. We are on very friendly terms, and this allows our disagreements to be vocal without any risk of it descending into anger. Relationships help open-minded thinking and civil disagreement.
Fascinating interview! Your conversation with Robert Wright added to my enjoyment and understanding of The Righteous Mind. Wonderful food for thought for those of us who are students of human nature, morality, etc.
Wow! Very interesting discussion. I have a few comments on some of the subjects covered. First, I was very surprised when Dr. Haidt mentioned that liberals don’t think justice is not important to conservatives. As a liberal, I assume that conservatives place a high value on justice. On the other hand, I take a much darker view of the typical conservative’s concept of justice constitutes and I think even less of how they tend to believe justice ought to be administered. I also found the focus on war as the source of all groupishness perplexing. Groupish behavior amongst humans has been beneficial in avoiding/killing potential predators, hunting, gathering food, nurturing and protecting children (personally I’d bet during the course of evolutionary history that raising children has had the most profound effect on humans becoming an extremely social species). As for the history of human warfare, I know of at least a few prominent anthropologists who would disagree with the premise that war between groups of humans has been prevalent for 10s of thousands of years. According to Brian Ferguson, evidence of human war is scarce prior to about 12,000 years ago and did not become widespread until large numbers of humans began leading sedentary lives. I do agree that humans generally support people like themselves and are suspicious of outsiders. However, the nation-state doesn’t seem to be a construct that conservatives accept way down deep. Ethnicity (physical appearance and language) are the real markers that define a group for most conservatives. They give grudging respect to a nation when people like themselves are in charge. It’s not surprising (to me) how far to the right the conservative movement in the United States has moved since the election of Barack Obama. (I’d be interested in knowing whether there is a significant difference in the typical oxytocin levels of conservatives and liberals since this hormone seems to not only be important for bonding but apparently also instills a bit of hostility towards outsiders). Finally, I’m surprised that Dr. Haidt thinks that liberals believe that children are just as well off with a single parent as they would be with two parents, or better yet two parents, a couple of grandparents, some aunts and uncles and a few cousins. Of course having family support is extremely important to a child’s development and the more support the better. On the other hand, the children of single parents ought not to be stigmatized, as Dr. Haidt did consistently in this talk by referring to them as “illegitimate”. And what good is done for the parent or more importantly the child by stigmatizing the parent. This form of stigma is an example of conservative “justice”. Rather than improving the situation better for the child this type of justice makes matters worse. And likely inhibits the development of many children of single parents, especially those who grow up poor, from developing into productive, moral adults. Finally, on the question of a teenager’s abortion, Dr. Haidt did not even touch upon the liberal argument for not informing the child’s parents, which is that informing the parents might put the child in danger. I’m guessing the vast majority of liberals would support informing the child’s parents prior to performing an abortion if there is assurance that the teenage child won’t be harmed. Liberals, I think, tend to believe that conservative views on abortion are far more informed by their discomfort, even fear, of female sexuality. Dr. Haidt also seems to be cherry picking in his example suggesting that conservatives have a better understanding of liberals than vice versa. Many conservatives assert, apparently without considering the evidence, that liberals accept evolution because it undermines religions and anthropogenic global warming because it gives the lie to the conservative’s concept of capitalism (even more so for libertarianism). I loved this conversation and will be purchasing the book this weekend. Thanks to both of you.
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